The Russians liberated Poland from the nazis and returned them sovereignity in 1989.
The German population of Silesia - two million people - was expelled, and this rich region became a part of Poland. Generous EU-subsidies, mainly German money, helped Poland to become a relatively wealthy country after joining the EU.
You would think: this is the time to show some gratitude, or, at least, to let the past rest in peace, to start with a clean slate, and to cooperate. That's what we did in Western Europe.
No.
Now the Poles are among the main warmongers against Russia, and they are trying to extract even more money from the Germans...
There's a saying: a horse that has eaten enough, kicks away its bucket.
For every Mark krauts spent in Poland after EU accession, they must've extracted 10 from Poles by now. Last year I went to Poland, hardly any real Polish busineses, most are krauts. Poles buy polish bread in kraut supermarkets dressed up as polish businesses.
Same principle is applied for *all* the new members on the eastern flanks. Consumer-feudalism.
One would think Krauts should show some gratitude and pay what is a fraction of the damages they created in ww2.
There's a saying "Never trust krauts coming with a peace proposal"
WW2 was a generation ago and much has changed since then. I thought that war reparations were meant to repair damage and improve post-conflict standard of living - not coerce one nation to provide arms that could be used in another war that would involve far more than Poland and Russia. Russia will only invade Poland if Poland wages war on Russia. If Poland doesn't have the military capacity for war with Russia then Germany must not be coerced to become involved.
Average Poles, in my experience at least, don't hate Russians or Germans per se, but more of them nowadays tend to hate the Russian government for historical reasons than the German one.
The German Nazis systematically genocided around 1/5th of Poles just several generations ago while the Soviets never committed anywhere near those atrocities during the "Polish People's Republic" period that many Poles detest.
My understanding is that the comparatively much less intense oppression that Poles experienced under the Soviets compared to the Nazis is more fresh in many of their minds so that's why so many of them hate the Russian government nowadays more than the German one.
There's also this perception that while the German Nazi "deep state" was dismantled after WWII, the Soviet one still survives in Russia today (albeit no longer communist), hence the assumption that Russia is plotting to replicate the USSR's policies against Poland.
I'm not excusing any of this, just explaining it. The infowar between both sides has also toxified popular perceptions of Russia among Poles, especially as a result of Russian pundits occasionally talking on TV about nuking Poland:
Another thing that really riles Poles is non-Poles who sympathize with contemporary Russia's foreign policy goals blindly agreeing with its historical narratives vis-a-vis the practically millennium-old Polish-Russian rivalry.
Poland has its own subjective interpretations too, and just like Russia, it too sometimes omits or creatively interprets certain relevant facts, but the perception of people with no stake in this debate taking Russia's side in it just to virtue signal support gets them angry.
As someone with a passion for regional history, I spotted right away that he left out some pretty crucial facts when trying to make his case.
For instance, Ivan III wanted to "regather the Russian lands" and began presenting himself as the defender of the Orthodox descendants of "Old ('Kievan') Rus".
Several Polish-Rus and Lithuanian-Moscow (the second with regards to the Principality thereof) wars had already been waged by the time he wrote about:
(it goes without saying that sharing Wiki links is purely for convenience, not an endorsement of everything written therein; anyone can do their own research)
It doesn't matter which "side" one "supports", the fact is that Poland-Lithuania and Rus-Moscow already saw each other as intractable regional rivals over Old Rus' legacy.
Moreover, while Poland was eventually ruled by a Catholic zealot at one point (Sigismund III Vasa: 1587-1632), Russia also later behaved similarly with Orthodoxy.
It's not to judge, just to relate some facts: during the late Russian Imperial period, "Russification" was imposed at the expense of of Polish Catholic identity.
Readers should recall that Poles were indigenous to their lands that were partitioned by Russia and others yet their culture was indisputably threatened by this policy.
It doesn't matter whether one supports or opposes the policy, the fact is that a similar approach as the one that Poland once used against Russia was used by Russia against Poland.
My point is that this latest example proves what I was saying above, that Russia's historical narrative -- which Poles naturally disagree with -- is sometimes like in this case advanced through convenient omissions or creative interpretations of facts but is nevertheless embraced by many non-Russians with no stakes in these historical disputes solely to virtue signal support for contemporary Russia's foreign policy.
Bordachev's piece makes it seem like Poland-Lithuania invented some pathological fear of Old Rus/Moscow/Russia even though they'd already had several wars over the past half-millennium by then so their rivalry was natural.
Unaware readers with no real knowledge of regional history but who support contemporary Russia's foreign policy might therefore take his narrative for granted even though it's based on a glaring omission of the aforesaid fact.
My personal view is that each side can argue their historical narratives and associated merits without omitting and creatively interpreting facts. Both sides employ these underhanded tactics, however, and this is nothing new.
It's just disappointing whenever I see Russia do it since I believe that Russia has the moral high ground on foreign policy right now yet it inadvertently cedes that through such glaring omissions of key facts to push a certain narrative.
I'm not blaming Bordachev, let alone RT for republishing what he wrote, he might not even know that he's only been taught certain facts and might never have tried to research the subject after taken what he was taught for granted.
My point is that it's examples like these that fuel political Russophobia in Poland (as in fear and/or hatred of the state, not the people, which is ethno-national Russophobia) and prevent Russia from making meaningful soft power inroads there.
It's the first time that somebody paint me that objectively.
What you say about attitude of Russians toward Poles remind me something I told to you once, that Russians really have a gift to be disliked.
About the few I know about east Europe history, for me, the Poles-Russians antagonism is a mess.
Poland had a wonderful history and dominated Russia within centuries and it seems that it never forgive to Russia to become far more bigger and stronger than itself.
In the same time, Poles are Slavs. But centuries after centuries, they run after western Europe in trying to be considered as equals. They even saved Vienna against Turks. But centuries after centuries, Poles had never been considered as equals by western Europeans. As Slaves, they always and they are still not considered as equal.
We often speak about western russophobia. One better speak about western racism against Slavs.
Instead of licking western asses , Poles would build an invincible alliance with Russia.
Such an alliance would immediately rule Europe and change all the balance of force.
The Russians liberated Poland from the nazis and returned them sovereignity in 1989.
The German population of Silesia - two million people - was expelled, and this rich region became a part of Poland. Generous EU-subsidies, mainly German money, helped Poland to become a relatively wealthy country after joining the EU.
You would think: this is the time to show some gratitude, or, at least, to let the past rest in peace, to start with a clean slate, and to cooperate. That's what we did in Western Europe.
No.
Now the Poles are among the main warmongers against Russia, and they are trying to extract even more money from the Germans...
There's a saying: a horse that has eaten enough, kicks away its bucket.
" . Generous EU-subsidies, mainly German money, helped Poland to become a relatively wealthy country after joining the EU. "
How much EU and German money goes to Israel every year ?
For every Mark krauts spent in Poland after EU accession, they must've extracted 10 from Poles by now. Last year I went to Poland, hardly any real Polish busineses, most are krauts. Poles buy polish bread in kraut supermarkets dressed up as polish businesses.
Same principle is applied for *all* the new members on the eastern flanks. Consumer-feudalism.
One would think Krauts should show some gratitude and pay what is a fraction of the damages they created in ww2.
There's a saying "Never trust krauts coming with a peace proposal"
WW2 was a generation ago and much has changed since then. I thought that war reparations were meant to repair damage and improve post-conflict standard of living - not coerce one nation to provide arms that could be used in another war that would involve far more than Poland and Russia. Russia will only invade Poland if Poland wages war on Russia. If Poland doesn't have the military capacity for war with Russia then Germany must not be coerced to become involved.
The whole point has always been to saddle the German racehorse with as much penalty weights as possible, to keep it from winning anything.
Two generation. At least. 80 years make even three generations.
One must explain me why Poles hate Russians and like to be be german slaves.
Russia has not done 1% of what Prussia then Germany did to them.
I like Poles, but it's hard sometimes.
Average Poles, in my experience at least, don't hate Russians or Germans per se, but more of them nowadays tend to hate the Russian government for historical reasons than the German one.
The German Nazis systematically genocided around 1/5th of Poles just several generations ago while the Soviets never committed anywhere near those atrocities during the "Polish People's Republic" period that many Poles detest.
My understanding is that the comparatively much less intense oppression that Poles experienced under the Soviets compared to the Nazis is more fresh in many of their minds so that's why so many of them hate the Russian government nowadays more than the German one.
There's also this perception that while the German Nazi "deep state" was dismantled after WWII, the Soviet one still survives in Russia today (albeit no longer communist), hence the assumption that Russia is plotting to replicate the USSR's policies against Poland.
I'm not excusing any of this, just explaining it. The infowar between both sides has also toxified popular perceptions of Russia among Poles, especially as a result of Russian pundits occasionally talking on TV about nuking Poland:
https://korybko.substack.com/p/dont-take-domestic-russian-pundits
Another thing that really riles Poles is non-Poles who sympathize with contemporary Russia's foreign policy goals blindly agreeing with its historical narratives vis-a-vis the practically millennium-old Polish-Russian rivalry.
Poland has its own subjective interpretations too, and just like Russia, it too sometimes omits or creatively interprets certain relevant facts, but the perception of people with no stake in this debate taking Russia's side in it just to virtue signal support gets them angry.
Take this recent piece from Valdai's Bordachev that was translated and republished by RT:
https://www.rt.com/russia/625333-western-europe-invented-russian-threat/
As someone with a passion for regional history, I spotted right away that he left out some pretty crucial facts when trying to make his case.
For instance, Ivan III wanted to "regather the Russian lands" and began presenting himself as the defender of the Orthodox descendants of "Old ('Kievan') Rus".
Several Polish-Rus and Lithuanian-Moscow (the second with regards to the Principality thereof) wars had already been waged by the time he wrote about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_between_Poland_and_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovite%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Wars
(it goes without saying that sharing Wiki links is purely for convenience, not an endorsement of everything written therein; anyone can do their own research)
It doesn't matter which "side" one "supports", the fact is that Poland-Lithuania and Rus-Moscow already saw each other as intractable regional rivals over Old Rus' legacy.
Moreover, while Poland was eventually ruled by a Catholic zealot at one point (Sigismund III Vasa: 1587-1632), Russia also later behaved similarly with Orthodoxy.
It's not to judge, just to relate some facts: during the late Russian Imperial period, "Russification" was imposed at the expense of of Polish Catholic identity.
Readers should recall that Poles were indigenous to their lands that were partitioned by Russia and others yet their culture was indisputably threatened by this policy.
It doesn't matter whether one supports or opposes the policy, the fact is that a similar approach as the one that Poland once used against Russia was used by Russia against Poland.
My point is that this latest example proves what I was saying above, that Russia's historical narrative -- which Poles naturally disagree with -- is sometimes like in this case advanced through convenient omissions or creative interpretations of facts but is nevertheless embraced by many non-Russians with no stakes in these historical disputes solely to virtue signal support for contemporary Russia's foreign policy.
Bordachev's piece makes it seem like Poland-Lithuania invented some pathological fear of Old Rus/Moscow/Russia even though they'd already had several wars over the past half-millennium by then so their rivalry was natural.
Unaware readers with no real knowledge of regional history but who support contemporary Russia's foreign policy might therefore take his narrative for granted even though it's based on a glaring omission of the aforesaid fact.
My personal view is that each side can argue their historical narratives and associated merits without omitting and creatively interpreting facts. Both sides employ these underhanded tactics, however, and this is nothing new.
It's just disappointing whenever I see Russia do it since I believe that Russia has the moral high ground on foreign policy right now yet it inadvertently cedes that through such glaring omissions of key facts to push a certain narrative.
I'm not blaming Bordachev, let alone RT for republishing what he wrote, he might not even know that he's only been taught certain facts and might never have tried to research the subject after taken what he was taught for granted.
My point is that it's examples like these that fuel political Russophobia in Poland (as in fear and/or hatred of the state, not the people, which is ethno-national Russophobia) and prevent Russia from making meaningful soft power inroads there.
Thank you very much.
It's the first time that somebody paint me that objectively.
What you say about attitude of Russians toward Poles remind me something I told to you once, that Russians really have a gift to be disliked.
About the few I know about east Europe history, for me, the Poles-Russians antagonism is a mess.
Poland had a wonderful history and dominated Russia within centuries and it seems that it never forgive to Russia to become far more bigger and stronger than itself.
In the same time, Poles are Slavs. But centuries after centuries, they run after western Europe in trying to be considered as equals. They even saved Vienna against Turks. But centuries after centuries, Poles had never been considered as equals by western Europeans. As Slaves, they always and they are still not considered as equal.
We often speak about western russophobia. One better speak about western racism against Slavs.
Instead of licking western asses , Poles would build an invincible alliance with Russia.
Such an alliance would immediately rule Europe and change all the balance of force.
You know what I think of Bordachev... Terrible to think that he have the ear of Poutine.
So the powers that started the world wars to keep Germany down and Russia out are at it again AND using Poland again? You don’t say!
Germany would be delighted.