What Andrew don't say is that Poland-lithuania was the biggest territory of Europe untill the 18th century. And if was the most powerful of middle and east Europe.
It broke the Teutonic order, it dominated Russia till the 17th century. It saved Vienna and Europe of Turkish invasion at the end of the 17th century. It had the best and the most beautifull cavalry of the world: the winged hussars( during the Napoleonic wars, Poles cavalry was the best of the french army and saved the day in a lot of battles).
In those days, Russia was just the Archduchy of Moscou, a dwarf in front of the huge Poland-lithuania ( Poland, Baltes, Belarus, Ukraine, Slovakia and a part of Hungary). Poland lived already like a western land( but not considered as it by western countries which still despise it today) with a modern army, modern artillery, modern infantry, well educated by expert mercenary from west, Spanish, Germans, Swiss( best infantry),French which knew terribles wars during all the 16th century.
Even Yvan IV Grosny was defeated with his hordes of charging anarchic cavalry.
After this king, big internal troubled in Russia allowed Poles to enter Moscow. But it brought nothing really good to Poland.
But Russia was under control for decades more.
Problem came from growing power: Swedish. In the 17th century, Swede succeeded in creating the best army of Europe.
But even with that terrible power there were not able to invade Poland.
So they teared it by arousing a civil war in Poland. So terrible war that the country lost 1/3 of its population.
Poland had still enough power to stop and broke the Turks in front of Vienna but it was terribly weakened while two monstrous power had grown considerably. The former Teutonic states, became a protestant state, duchy of Prussia, then kingdom of Prussia. The archduchy of Moscow a was became the Russian Empire. In one century Poland were crushed by those two young and powerful grindstone and finally disappeared in 1795 for only birth again in 1918 by the will of France and England.
Poland has never forgiven the despised Russia to become better that it.
Hey Andrew, I like you and I'm not particularly proud of Napoleonic Russia campaign, but either you forgot, either you don't know that french Great Army entered in Moscow and went out only because Riga was not taken by Mac Donald and Oudinot army with the terrible consequence that all the waterway supply routes were cut. If The Great Army staid the winter in Moscow, it would had starved and received no ammos.
I don't know why historian don't speak of this true reason of french disaster in Russia. It's interesting to notice that both generals Mac Donald and Oudinot, had great careers, honours and wealth after the Restauration with the kings Louis XVIII and Charles X. They became pair of kingdom. It's Oudinot who got the Napoleon abdication...
Hey Darras, I didn't mention Napoleon because Moscow wasn't the capital of Russia when he invaded the country and occupied the city, St. Petersburg was. Therefore, Poland is still the only country to ever occupy a Russian capital (the Mongols just vassalized "Old Rus").
Poland and Russia are a unique case - the only two countries where on their independence days (in Russia's case it's National Unity Day) they celebrate independence from each other. It's a long rivalry indeed: Russia has had more wars with Poland/Poland-Lithuania throughout history than with any other state (perhaps except with Turkey).
With regards to Polish-Lithuanian occupation of Moscow. While yes, it was the only prolonged occupation of Moscow in history, it is worth emphasizing that contrary to popular Polish internet tropes, it was definitely not the only time when Moscow was successfully invaded, captured, sacked, burned, looted etc. This occurred close to 10 times throughout its history.
You're right, Moscow was looted before, but it was never occupied for a substantial period of time like the two years that the Poles controlled the capital.
Want to cheeze off a Pole? Want to sent Stasiek or Gosia into a spitting mad Donald Duck meltdown?
Remind your Pole that, whatever bad things Russia, the Soviet Union, whatever did, the only reason that there are Polish people alive today in Poland is because of the Red Army. To
Well, as someone who's not Polish, but has lived in Poland for quite a while, it's silly to say that Poles have much more love for Germany than for Russia. The long-standing rivalry and atrocities committed by Germans are very well remembered. I'd say Russia gets somewhat more hate because of several factors, like joining EU and NATO, huge economic ties (Germany being #1 trade partner for Poland, and Poland being #4 for Germany), Germany admitting to the atrocities of WW2 and apologizing profusely multiple times (something Russia refuses to do) and of course the currently unfolding geopolitical events, foreseen by the Poles long time ago. Poles meet Germans much more often than Russians in everyday life (whether due to business ties, student exchange or emigration) than Russians, and I think it's safe to say that the mutual hostility on a personal level is long-gone, especially when it comes to younger generations. This however does not preclude Germany still being thought of as one of the two main sources of historical and potential geopolitical trouble, along with Russia.
As far as I know, Russia (Putin himself?) apologized for the murder of 8,000 of Polish officers in Katyń by the Soviets in 1940.
Poland is still waiting for the apology from Ukraine for the murder of 150,000 Polish civilians in Wołyń by the Ukrainian Nationalists during German occupation.
The current Ukrainian government reclaimed the ideology, army salutations, symbols and insignia of the Ukrainian Nationalists Army (Banderides) that was a part of Hitler’s military.
This is becoming a big issue in Poland. Recently, Poland prohibited display of the Ukrainian Banderites symbols.
Katyn massacre was 22,000, not 8,000, and only 2/3 were officers, 1/3 were civilians, but yes, Russia apologized for Katyn, and only for Katyn, as far as I know. Why this particular event is so emphasized is puzzling, when Soviet repressions went far beyond that (111,000 Poles killed in NKVD special operation in USSR, around 1 million deportees, around 150,000 deaths due to repressions during WW2 alone, etc.)
While Poland did not receive a clear-cut top-level apology (like the one(s) by Germany) from Ukraine for the Wolyn massacre and there are still big tensions around the issue of exhumation, to be fair we need to admit that Poland did receive words and gestures of reconciliation on multiple occassions, for example from the Chairman of the Rada, as well as Zelensky himself on the recent anniversary of the massacre.
And I don't think it's fair to just slap on a Hitler label on UPA or today's Ukrainian army and think this explains Ukraine's prolonged and bloody struggle against Soviets and Russians somehow. Calling Ukrainians (or Latvians, etc.) neonazi, which Russian media does consistently... that might be okay for a wartime slogan for the masses, but not if we were to attempt to understand history.
That remind me the story of the man very jealous. So jealous that he became very violent each time a man looked at his wife. Except when a very big, beef and bully man hold tightly his wife's ass each time he passes around.
He said quiet and smiling in saying: " he is a friend".
Same holds true for me, but this "Germany is a part of Europe" slogan is not something I've ever heard myself, and would imagine only some truly low IQ Pole repeating.
Poles were number 3 target on Hitler’s extermination list, right after Jews and Roma. They want to forget it.
Poles have been subject to Western propaganda for centuries. It does not matter is it Vatican, London or Washington. Unfortunately, they don’t mind being vassals to the one they see as better than themselves.
Poles are lovely people: smart, hardworking, proud and patriotic.
Yes, in France, Poles are probably folks the most appreciated. We had an huge Poles immigration one century ago and they became the best citizens in our country, in less than one generation. Their kids became more french than French. They are ardent and romantic( in the "excessive" meaning) like our fathers, not like the soft wimp we became now.
As you know, facts are subject of interpretation. The same story told by opposing sides might look like a different story. I am not disputing post WWII repressions. Not sure about the numbers. They depend on the source.
Struggle for independence, survival and security is at the core of every nation. Ukraine is one of many.
But it’s the only nation in Europe that choose to use the symbols and insignia of the Nazi army in their nations army.
Ukrainian soldiers with the swastyka tattoos on the neck on the streets of Poland (while in NATO training) look scary. It’s even worse if you hear what they are talking about.
As for propaganda, according to the Western media, Putin is a Hitler’s reincarnation, Russians are uneducated slaves, and the West cannot relax till they dismembered Russia in many smaller states, as Zbigniew Brzeziński outlined, and the brilliant EU mind Kaia Kallas has been proclaiming proudly.
Russia is not the Soviet Union. The Russian army don’t use the USSR symbols and insignia.
What is the solution ? Diplomacy, peace and reconciliation or the wars to make the fat cats of the perfidious elites even fatter?
"But it’s the only nation in Europe that choose to use the symbols and insignia of the Nazi army in their nations army."
I dunno, the baltics sure are enthusiastic about their SS veterans, all without a peep from europe. The finns used a swastika as an air force roundel until quite recently.
Yes, they genuinely do. The outdoor exhibition that I mentioned made that very clear. I went to see it last week. I know that both sides have very partisan views about the others in their historiography but I wasn't expected how extreme Russia's were about Poland. It was like reading a summary of an alternative history novel.
My impression was that it's meant to precondition the population for another prolonged regional rivalry with Poland after the Ukrainian Conflict ends. I can't think of any other cogent explanation for what I witnessed.
That said, while I was there -- I photographed all the placards to so I could reference them in the future -- not a single person stopped by to read even one; everyone kept walking past, minding their business, en route to wherever.
Most likely, its a setup for the next installment of the overarching agenda. Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltics are too homogenous for the PTB, what better way to change that then through warfare ?
Would you mind sharing the pictures? I was trying to find the placards online, but to no avail.
Yes, I think it's not so much about perceiving Poland as a big threat that is plotting Russia's demise, but more about preparing the locals for upcoming conflict with Poland. I've witnessed this shift towards Poland and the Baltic States in Russian media already roughly around the time of Euromaidan/Crimea events: the guests on primetime TV talkshows started openly accusing Poland of starting WW2, of being 10x more antisemitic than Hitler, calling Baltic states neo-nazi russophobes, etc. It's reflected in school textbooks: https://www.facebook.com/reel/2341803366250848
Sure, it would be easiest if you follow me on X and post that it's you (you can just say that you came here, to my X account, from Substack). I'll then follow back and DM you the pics from my phone. I don't have the Substack app on it so going through X is the easiest way.
To the substance of your post, I don't believe that Russia is preparing people for a future conflict with Poland, rather for a revival of their centuries-long rivalry in the region.
There's a possibility that Poland will be blamed even more for the Ukrainian Conflict once it ends if the US and Russia patch up their problems.
It definitely played a role in the run-up to hostilities, in convincing Zelensky to keep fighting that spring, and in continuing the conflict, but I wouldn't describe it as one of the masterminds.
Nevertheless, scapegoating Poland would serve Russia's interests in that context by taking some of the blame off of the US while the US' would be served by hardening Polish resolve to contain Russia.
If you're interested, here are my impressions living in Moscow for the past 12 years under my Polish passport (I'm a dual citizen born and raised in the US and don't speak Polish since I only saw my Polish dad on weekends after my parents divorced when I was young):
If you tune out the pundits, who I don't think anyone should take seriously about anything perhaps with a few exceptions, then nobody here has any problem with Poles. It's mostly just the "Non-Russian Pro-Russians" (NRPRs) on X who push anti-Polish narratives on social media.
Fascinating. Didn't know Polish/Russian relations had been bad for centuries.
Bad is a weak word.
What Andrew don't say is that Poland-lithuania was the biggest territory of Europe untill the 18th century. And if was the most powerful of middle and east Europe.
It broke the Teutonic order, it dominated Russia till the 17th century. It saved Vienna and Europe of Turkish invasion at the end of the 17th century. It had the best and the most beautifull cavalry of the world: the winged hussars( during the Napoleonic wars, Poles cavalry was the best of the french army and saved the day in a lot of battles).
In those days, Russia was just the Archduchy of Moscou, a dwarf in front of the huge Poland-lithuania ( Poland, Baltes, Belarus, Ukraine, Slovakia and a part of Hungary). Poland lived already like a western land( but not considered as it by western countries which still despise it today) with a modern army, modern artillery, modern infantry, well educated by expert mercenary from west, Spanish, Germans, Swiss( best infantry),French which knew terribles wars during all the 16th century.
Even Yvan IV Grosny was defeated with his hordes of charging anarchic cavalry.
After this king, big internal troubled in Russia allowed Poles to enter Moscow. But it brought nothing really good to Poland.
But Russia was under control for decades more.
Problem came from growing power: Swedish. In the 17th century, Swede succeeded in creating the best army of Europe.
But even with that terrible power there were not able to invade Poland.
So they teared it by arousing a civil war in Poland. So terrible war that the country lost 1/3 of its population.
Poland had still enough power to stop and broke the Turks in front of Vienna but it was terribly weakened while two monstrous power had grown considerably. The former Teutonic states, became a protestant state, duchy of Prussia, then kingdom of Prussia. The archduchy of Moscow a was became the Russian Empire. In one century Poland were crushed by those two young and powerful grindstone and finally disappeared in 1795 for only birth again in 1918 by the will of France and England.
Poland has never forgiven the despised Russia to become better that it.
Hey Andrew, I like you and I'm not particularly proud of Napoleonic Russia campaign, but either you forgot, either you don't know that french Great Army entered in Moscow and went out only because Riga was not taken by Mac Donald and Oudinot army with the terrible consequence that all the waterway supply routes were cut. If The Great Army staid the winter in Moscow, it would had starved and received no ammos.
I don't know why historian don't speak of this true reason of french disaster in Russia. It's interesting to notice that both generals Mac Donald and Oudinot, had great careers, honours and wealth after the Restauration with the kings Louis XVIII and Charles X. They became pair of kingdom. It's Oudinot who got the Napoleon abdication...
That explain perhaps this.
Hey Darras, I didn't mention Napoleon because Moscow wasn't the capital of Russia when he invaded the country and occupied the city, St. Petersburg was. Therefore, Poland is still the only country to ever occupy a Russian capital (the Mongols just vassalized "Old Rus").
You're right.
Caramba ! Missed again!
😂
Poland and Russia are a unique case - the only two countries where on their independence days (in Russia's case it's National Unity Day) they celebrate independence from each other. It's a long rivalry indeed: Russia has had more wars with Poland/Poland-Lithuania throughout history than with any other state (perhaps except with Turkey).
With regards to Polish-Lithuanian occupation of Moscow. While yes, it was the only prolonged occupation of Moscow in history, it is worth emphasizing that contrary to popular Polish internet tropes, it was definitely not the only time when Moscow was successfully invaded, captured, sacked, burned, looted etc. This occurred close to 10 times throughout its history.
You're right, Moscow was looted before, but it was never occupied for a substantial period of time like the two years that the Poles controlled the capital.
Thank you Andrew for this concise history of Polands actions against Russia and Ukraine. Today they think they can againe become a great power. Ha Ha.
Want to cheeze off a Pole? Want to sent Stasiek or Gosia into a spitting mad Donald Duck meltdown?
Remind your Pole that, whatever bad things Russia, the Soviet Union, whatever did, the only reason that there are Polish people alive today in Poland is because of the Red Army. To
Yes, you can also ask why if they hate Russia because it made them suffer a lot, why do they suck Germans who were hugely worse?
Well, as someone who's not Polish, but has lived in Poland for quite a while, it's silly to say that Poles have much more love for Germany than for Russia. The long-standing rivalry and atrocities committed by Germans are very well remembered. I'd say Russia gets somewhat more hate because of several factors, like joining EU and NATO, huge economic ties (Germany being #1 trade partner for Poland, and Poland being #4 for Germany), Germany admitting to the atrocities of WW2 and apologizing profusely multiple times (something Russia refuses to do) and of course the currently unfolding geopolitical events, foreseen by the Poles long time ago. Poles meet Germans much more often than Russians in everyday life (whether due to business ties, student exchange or emigration) than Russians, and I think it's safe to say that the mutual hostility on a personal level is long-gone, especially when it comes to younger generations. This however does not preclude Germany still being thought of as one of the two main sources of historical and potential geopolitical trouble, along with Russia.
As far as I know, Russia (Putin himself?) apologized for the murder of 8,000 of Polish officers in Katyń by the Soviets in 1940.
Poland is still waiting for the apology from Ukraine for the murder of 150,000 Polish civilians in Wołyń by the Ukrainian Nationalists during German occupation.
The current Ukrainian government reclaimed the ideology, army salutations, symbols and insignia of the Ukrainian Nationalists Army (Banderides) that was a part of Hitler’s military.
This is becoming a big issue in Poland. Recently, Poland prohibited display of the Ukrainian Banderites symbols.
Katyn massacre was 22,000, not 8,000, and only 2/3 were officers, 1/3 were civilians, but yes, Russia apologized for Katyn, and only for Katyn, as far as I know. Why this particular event is so emphasized is puzzling, when Soviet repressions went far beyond that (111,000 Poles killed in NKVD special operation in USSR, around 1 million deportees, around 150,000 deaths due to repressions during WW2 alone, etc.)
While Poland did not receive a clear-cut top-level apology (like the one(s) by Germany) from Ukraine for the Wolyn massacre and there are still big tensions around the issue of exhumation, to be fair we need to admit that Poland did receive words and gestures of reconciliation on multiple occassions, for example from the Chairman of the Rada, as well as Zelensky himself on the recent anniversary of the massacre.
And I don't think it's fair to just slap on a Hitler label on UPA or today's Ukrainian army and think this explains Ukraine's prolonged and bloody struggle against Soviets and Russians somehow. Calling Ukrainians (or Latvians, etc.) neonazi, which Russian media does consistently... that might be okay for a wartime slogan for the masses, but not if we were to attempt to understand history.
Poles will tell you (I speak Polish) that germans were okay because "Germany is a part of europe!"
Poles love to recite slogans instead of thinking.
That remind me the story of the man very jealous. So jealous that he became very violent each time a man looked at his wife. Except when a very big, beef and bully man hold tightly his wife's ass each time he passes around.
He said quiet and smiling in saying: " he is a friend".
No Polish people that I know think that.
I lived in Poland, speak Polish and have some Polish education. I suspect that I know whereof I speak.
I am Polish.
Ha ok, we'll repeat twice. 😂
OK.
Same holds true for me, but this "Germany is a part of Europe" slogan is not something I've ever heard myself, and would imagine only some truly low IQ Pole repeating.
Poles were number 3 target on Hitler’s extermination list, right after Jews and Roma. They want to forget it.
Poles have been subject to Western propaganda for centuries. It does not matter is it Vatican, London or Washington. Unfortunately, they don’t mind being vassals to the one they see as better than themselves.
Poles are lovely people: smart, hardworking, proud and patriotic.
Yes, in France, Poles are probably folks the most appreciated. We had an huge Poles immigration one century ago and they became the best citizens in our country, in less than one generation. Their kids became more french than French. They are ardent and romantic( in the "excessive" meaning) like our fathers, not like the soft wimp we became now.
Dont fall for the HoloHoax.
As you know, facts are subject of interpretation. The same story told by opposing sides might look like a different story. I am not disputing post WWII repressions. Not sure about the numbers. They depend on the source.
Struggle for independence, survival and security is at the core of every nation. Ukraine is one of many.
But it’s the only nation in Europe that choose to use the symbols and insignia of the Nazi army in their nations army.
Ukrainian soldiers with the swastyka tattoos on the neck on the streets of Poland (while in NATO training) look scary. It’s even worse if you hear what they are talking about.
As for propaganda, according to the Western media, Putin is a Hitler’s reincarnation, Russians are uneducated slaves, and the West cannot relax till they dismembered Russia in many smaller states, as Zbigniew Brzeziński outlined, and the brilliant EU mind Kaia Kallas has been proclaiming proudly.
Russia is not the Soviet Union. The Russian army don’t use the USSR symbols and insignia.
What is the solution ? Diplomacy, peace and reconciliation or the wars to make the fat cats of the perfidious elites even fatter?
"But it’s the only nation in Europe that choose to use the symbols and insignia of the Nazi army in their nations army."
I dunno, the baltics sure are enthusiastic about their SS veterans, all without a peep from europe. The finns used a swastika as an air force roundel until quite recently.
Far from it. The Poles survived three partions, they would have survived German occupation also.
The partitions were not intended to exterminate Poles. The germans had demonstrated that they were ready, willing and able to exterminate Poles.
The Germans could be brutal, like all other occupiers, but they werent trying to exterminate any particular group.
Um, they were quite vocal in stating and doing otherwise.
Documentation ?
How many public statements do you need?
It seems the only ones who said that were the Czechs.
" It’s with the preceding facts and more in mind that Russia nowadays believes that Poland has been the most consistent threat to its national unity "
If Russia truly believes that then they are delusional, as the danger lies completely elsewhere.
Yes, they genuinely do. The outdoor exhibition that I mentioned made that very clear. I went to see it last week. I know that both sides have very partisan views about the others in their historiography but I wasn't expected how extreme Russia's were about Poland. It was like reading a summary of an alternative history novel.
My impression was that it's meant to precondition the population for another prolonged regional rivalry with Poland after the Ukrainian Conflict ends. I can't think of any other cogent explanation for what I witnessed.
That said, while I was there -- I photographed all the placards to so I could reference them in the future -- not a single person stopped by to read even one; everyone kept walking past, minding their business, en route to wherever.
Most likely, its a setup for the next installment of the overarching agenda. Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltics are too homogenous for the PTB, what better way to change that then through warfare ?
From 25 years ago: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/sep/03/race.world
Would you mind sharing the pictures? I was trying to find the placards online, but to no avail.
Yes, I think it's not so much about perceiving Poland as a big threat that is plotting Russia's demise, but more about preparing the locals for upcoming conflict with Poland. I've witnessed this shift towards Poland and the Baltic States in Russian media already roughly around the time of Euromaidan/Crimea events: the guests on primetime TV talkshows started openly accusing Poland of starting WW2, of being 10x more antisemitic than Hitler, calling Baltic states neo-nazi russophobes, etc. It's reflected in school textbooks: https://www.facebook.com/reel/2341803366250848
Sure, it would be easiest if you follow me on X and post that it's you (you can just say that you came here, to my X account, from Substack). I'll then follow back and DM you the pics from my phone. I don't have the Substack app on it so going through X is the easiest way.
To the substance of your post, I don't believe that Russia is preparing people for a future conflict with Poland, rather for a revival of their centuries-long rivalry in the region.
There's a possibility that Poland will be blamed even more for the Ukrainian Conflict once it ends if the US and Russia patch up their problems.
It definitely played a role in the run-up to hostilities, in convincing Zelensky to keep fighting that spring, and in continuing the conflict, but I wouldn't describe it as one of the masterminds.
Nevertheless, scapegoating Poland would serve Russia's interests in that context by taking some of the blame off of the US while the US' would be served by hardening Polish resolve to contain Russia.
If you're interested, here are my impressions living in Moscow for the past 12 years under my Polish passport (I'm a dual citizen born and raised in the US and don't speak Polish since I only saw my Polish dad on weekends after my parents divorced when I was young):
https://x.com/AKorybko/status/1974891017045508427
If you tune out the pundits, who I don't think anyone should take seriously about anything perhaps with a few exceptions, then nobody here has any problem with Poles. It's mostly just the "Non-Russian Pro-Russians" (NRPRs) on X who push anti-Polish narratives on social media.