It’s only spreading if one dishonestly conflates this concept with typical right-wing opinions about Ukrainian refugees, Bandera, the EU, and national sovereignty like the ruling liberal coalition does.
Yes there has conflict between Poles/Russians/Ukrainians over the years. No one is totally guilty or inocent. So it is time for all 3 countries to come together for their common good Why continue the hatred and conflict????? The rest of the world is laughing at you.
Maybe not laughing: the US was using all three to pretend we still live in a unipolar world. Over 1.7 million dead in Russia and Ukraine, not even including refugees who died.
Of course. Poland is sufficiently russophobic that the label alone is enough and politicians avoid the label like vampires avoid garlic. If Putin were to announce that 2+2=4, poland would frantically start changing arithmetic textbooks.
Andrew: "Tusk presided over an ultimately failed Russian-Polish rapprochement during his first premiership from 2007-2014"
In that period we could witness a kind of general Western lull in hostility towards Russia. It's also the period where US Lehman Brother with its flawed AAA rating collapsed and swept away vast amount of (fictitious) wealth from the vassals but more importantly when president Putin made way for Medvedev. It's clear Medvedev was likened by the West and probably because he was lacking skills that his predecessor had. Medvedev even got the promise of 2 Mistrals, build by France but never delivered to Russia and instead diverted to Egypt... that had to trade 2 islands for it... . Either way, Russia is getting a beating, no denying that, but under Medvedev things would have been far worse and the Prighozin insurrection would have had a much higher impact.
Pro-Russian label is a tool of political warfare, just like antisemitic label is. We are firmly in the Post Truth Era. Ignoring the name calling is the only way to retain some sanity.
«Poland is one of the most politically Russophobic countries on earth in the sense of hating the Russian government for historical and/or personal reasons beyond the scope of this analysis to explain but are all connected to their millennium-long rivalry.»
As usual the use of very generic words like "Poland" seems to me misleading because my impression is that russophobia is particularly common and strong among the descendants of the "szlachta" (polish nobility) and the polonized ruthenian "schliakta" (galician-volhynian nobility). Their great-grandfathers were vassalized by Catherine II and then Stalin largely deprived them of their estates and of their power over the local serfs and they seem to still resent that. The most resentful are as a rule the descendants of those who went into exile, like in many parts of eastern Europe. The obvious example is the Brzezinski polonized ruthenian family of "schliakta" origin.
My impression is that in Poland, like in Germany-east, Ukraine, Russia itself and in some/many eastern european and central asian states the working class majority remembers positively the soviet period as one of secure and decent living standards with much less stress than today, and that party bosses were not more worse than businesses bosses.
My impression is also that many poles and other eastern europeans have started to think that their governments currently are more submissive to USA whims than they were to the USSR during the soviet period.
«russophobia is particularly common and strong among the descendants of the "szlachta" (polish nobility) and the polonized ruthenian "schliakta" (galician-volhynian nobility)»
This is I think the background (or pretend background or aspired background) of many "ukrainian" fascists:
"Despite Polonisation in Lithuania and Ruthenia in the 17th-18th centuries, a large part of the lower szlachta managed to retain their cultural identity in various ways. According to Polish estimates from the 1930s, 300,000 members of the common nobles - szlachta zagrodowa - inhabited the subcarpathian region of the Second Polish Republic out of 800,000 in the whole country. 90% of them were Ukrainian-speaking and 80% were Ukrainian Greek Catholics. [...] According to the Belarusian historian Anatol Hrytskievich, in the 16th century, within the territory of what is now Belarus, 80% of feudal lords were of Belarusian ethnic origin, 19% of Lithuanian, and 1% of other. [...] Until the 16th century the Ruthenian language was used by most of the szlachta of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, including the Grand Dukes and including the region of Samogitia, both in formal affairs and in private. By the end of the 16th century under a number of circumstances like Union of Brest, following the prohibition of the Orthodox church, increasing number Jesuit Schools, which became one of the main places for szlachta to get education etc. Polish language became more actively used, especially by Magnates while minor szlachta remained Old Ruthenian-speaking."
Andrew, this is a critical subject because Polish-Russian relations are a corner stone of Western Europe’s pro-war political drives. If Poland is removed from the aggressive pro-war team only the Baltic states remain on the Russian borders with a high emotional drive for war. Romania, after the recent stolen election, is a major question mark together with the 32 peaces of F-35 planes and the related austerity measures that are pushing taxation toward an extreme there.
The Polish-Russian relations are historically overloaded with traumatic events, mainly on the Polish side in the last century. I understand that the pre-WWII ethnic conflicts with Ukrainians there are still in the center of attention of patriotic Poland.
Do you have a clear image on how Polish public opinion concluded concerning the tragic plane accident of April 10, 2010 at Smolensk, Russia? The wiki report is very detailed in general, fully loaded with highly technical details but my own problem is that I do not trust wiki with substantial issues.
Saying that Poles are pro-Russia is like saying that Algerians are pro-France.
To much blood, humiliations, disdain.
And in my opinion what is interesting is that it's the only case in history where both have ruled the other. It's not a one way relation like all others.
«Saying that Poles are pro-Russia is like saying that Algerians are pro-France. To much blood, humiliations, disdain.»
As to "disdain" the polish upper-middle and upper class indeed disdain the russians as "tatar-slav" mixed-breeds, just like the ruthenians (western ukrainians and belarussians) do, as compared to "pure aryan slavs" like themselves.
The old story is that at various times the ruthenian empire and then the lithuanian-polish empire were bigger and more sophisticated (that is, more "european") than "savage", "mixed-breed", (that is "eurasian") Muscovy and their upper classes greatly resented that the latter became more powerful and conquered them.
As to "humiliations" the polish occupation of Muscovy and the Times of Trouble are well remembered by every muscovite.
Part of them want to leave the poverty, corruption, autoritarisme of their country and think the France owes them everything.
And the others hate us and want to swing France in an islamic country.
During 130 years, France acted awfully, beginning by killing a third of population , then drove Algerians from good lands to give it to European settlers( lot of Spanish and Italians) . They build churches everywhere in this land of Islam. They treated Algerians like USA treated it's black people between 1865 and 1950. Never a French had been sued for murduring a Algerian girl or raping a girl, Algerians had no rights and were abuse by settlers and a rotten colonial administration.
Algerians and Maroccans were the big majority of "french" army between 1942 and 1945. They took Monte Cassino for the glory of our tainted flag.
The day of peace, 8 may 1945, when the Algerians veterans did a pacific march to claim french citizenship ( no more) some of them were shot like dogs by angry settlers. Then there was a riot where 50 French were killed. By retaliation, the settlers, with help of army, in less than one week, killed...45000 men, women and children. It's known as the Massacre de Sétif.
It was the beginning of the war.
From 1947 to 1962, French army killed 1 million people, on ten. Tortured hundreds of thousands, raped girls( in Arab culture, it's worse than death) , deported entire village to camps. An horror.
In 1962, after the war, de Gaulle dealt with new authorities to keep on nuclear tests is algerian Sahara. Without precaution.
In 1967 de Gaulle signed the Paris Agreement with Algeria and nobody knows exactly what there is wrote in it. Probably a perpetual immigration deal.
At the beginning, people who came in France really wanted to integrate and become French like other French. But we did absolutely nothing to welcome and integrate them. Only racism, disdain, bad jobs.
Now, they are between 20-30% of our population and a lot of them, a true hate of us.
Yes there has conflict between Poles/Russians/Ukrainians over the years. No one is totally guilty or inocent. So it is time for all 3 countries to come together for their common good Why continue the hatred and conflict????? The rest of the world is laughing at you.
Maybe not laughing: the US was using all three to pretend we still live in a unipolar world. Over 1.7 million dead in Russia and Ukraine, not even including refugees who died.
If anyone is laughing, that's pretty ghoulish.
Of course. Poland is sufficiently russophobic that the label alone is enough and politicians avoid the label like vampires avoid garlic. If Putin were to announce that 2+2=4, poland would frantically start changing arithmetic textbooks.
Andrew: "Tusk presided over an ultimately failed Russian-Polish rapprochement during his first premiership from 2007-2014"
In that period we could witness a kind of general Western lull in hostility towards Russia. It's also the period where US Lehman Brother with its flawed AAA rating collapsed and swept away vast amount of (fictitious) wealth from the vassals but more importantly when president Putin made way for Medvedev. It's clear Medvedev was likened by the West and probably because he was lacking skills that his predecessor had. Medvedev even got the promise of 2 Mistrals, build by France but never delivered to Russia and instead diverted to Egypt... that had to trade 2 islands for it... . Either way, Russia is getting a beating, no denying that, but under Medvedev things would have been far worse and the Prighozin insurrection would have had a much higher impact.
Pro-Russian label is a tool of political warfare, just like antisemitic label is. We are firmly in the Post Truth Era. Ignoring the name calling is the only way to retain some sanity.
«Poland is one of the most politically Russophobic countries on earth in the sense of hating the Russian government for historical and/or personal reasons beyond the scope of this analysis to explain but are all connected to their millennium-long rivalry.»
As usual the use of very generic words like "Poland" seems to me misleading because my impression is that russophobia is particularly common and strong among the descendants of the "szlachta" (polish nobility) and the polonized ruthenian "schliakta" (galician-volhynian nobility). Their great-grandfathers were vassalized by Catherine II and then Stalin largely deprived them of their estates and of their power over the local serfs and they seem to still resent that. The most resentful are as a rule the descendants of those who went into exile, like in many parts of eastern Europe. The obvious example is the Brzezinski polonized ruthenian family of "schliakta" origin.
My impression is that in Poland, like in Germany-east, Ukraine, Russia itself and in some/many eastern european and central asian states the working class majority remembers positively the soviet period as one of secure and decent living standards with much less stress than today, and that party bosses were not more worse than businesses bosses.
My impression is also that many poles and other eastern europeans have started to think that their governments currently are more submissive to USA whims than they were to the USSR during the soviet period.
«russophobia is particularly common and strong among the descendants of the "szlachta" (polish nobility) and the polonized ruthenian "schliakta" (galician-volhynian nobility)»
This is I think the background (or pretend background or aspired background) of many "ukrainian" fascists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_nobility
"Despite Polonisation in Lithuania and Ruthenia in the 17th-18th centuries, a large part of the lower szlachta managed to retain their cultural identity in various ways. According to Polish estimates from the 1930s, 300,000 members of the common nobles - szlachta zagrodowa - inhabited the subcarpathian region of the Second Polish Republic out of 800,000 in the whole country. 90% of them were Ukrainian-speaking and 80% were Ukrainian Greek Catholics. [...] According to the Belarusian historian Anatol Hrytskievich, in the 16th century, within the territory of what is now Belarus, 80% of feudal lords were of Belarusian ethnic origin, 19% of Lithuanian, and 1% of other. [...] Until the 16th century the Ruthenian language was used by most of the szlachta of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, including the Grand Dukes and including the region of Samogitia, both in formal affairs and in private. By the end of the 16th century under a number of circumstances like Union of Brest, following the prohibition of the Orthodox church, increasing number Jesuit Schools, which became one of the main places for szlachta to get education etc. Polish language became more actively used, especially by Magnates while minor szlachta remained Old Ruthenian-speaking."
Andrew, this is a critical subject because Polish-Russian relations are a corner stone of Western Europe’s pro-war political drives. If Poland is removed from the aggressive pro-war team only the Baltic states remain on the Russian borders with a high emotional drive for war. Romania, after the recent stolen election, is a major question mark together with the 32 peaces of F-35 planes and the related austerity measures that are pushing taxation toward an extreme there.
The Polish-Russian relations are historically overloaded with traumatic events, mainly on the Polish side in the last century. I understand that the pre-WWII ethnic conflicts with Ukrainians there are still in the center of attention of patriotic Poland.
Do you have a clear image on how Polish public opinion concluded concerning the tragic plane accident of April 10, 2010 at Smolensk, Russia? The wiki report is very detailed in general, fully loaded with highly technical details but my own problem is that I do not trust wiki with substantial issues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_air_disaster
Saying that Poles are pro-Russia is like saying that Algerians are pro-France.
To much blood, humiliations, disdain.
And in my opinion what is interesting is that it's the only case in history where both have ruled the other. It's not a one way relation like all others.
«Saying that Poles are pro-Russia is like saying that Algerians are pro-France. To much blood, humiliations, disdain.»
As to "disdain" the polish upper-middle and upper class indeed disdain the russians as "tatar-slav" mixed-breeds, just like the ruthenians (western ukrainians and belarussians) do, as compared to "pure aryan slavs" like themselves.
The old story is that at various times the ruthenian empire and then the lithuanian-polish empire were bigger and more sophisticated (that is, more "european") than "savage", "mixed-breed", (that is "eurasian") Muscovy and their upper classes greatly resented that the latter became more powerful and conquered them.
As to "humiliations" the polish occupation of Muscovy and the Times of Trouble are well remembered by every muscovite.
Not many Poles flock to Russia, but Algerians have no problem invading France . Why is that ?
Part of them want to leave the poverty, corruption, autoritarisme of their country and think the France owes them everything.
And the others hate us and want to swing France in an islamic country.
During 130 years, France acted awfully, beginning by killing a third of population , then drove Algerians from good lands to give it to European settlers( lot of Spanish and Italians) . They build churches everywhere in this land of Islam. They treated Algerians like USA treated it's black people between 1865 and 1950. Never a French had been sued for murduring a Algerian girl or raping a girl, Algerians had no rights and were abuse by settlers and a rotten colonial administration.
Algerians and Maroccans were the big majority of "french" army between 1942 and 1945. They took Monte Cassino for the glory of our tainted flag.
The day of peace, 8 may 1945, when the Algerians veterans did a pacific march to claim french citizenship ( no more) some of them were shot like dogs by angry settlers. Then there was a riot where 50 French were killed. By retaliation, the settlers, with help of army, in less than one week, killed...45000 men, women and children. It's known as the Massacre de Sétif.
It was the beginning of the war.
From 1947 to 1962, French army killed 1 million people, on ten. Tortured hundreds of thousands, raped girls( in Arab culture, it's worse than death) , deported entire village to camps. An horror.
In 1962, after the war, de Gaulle dealt with new authorities to keep on nuclear tests is algerian Sahara. Without precaution.
In 1967 de Gaulle signed the Paris Agreement with Algeria and nobody knows exactly what there is wrote in it. Probably a perpetual immigration deal.
At the beginning, people who came in France really wanted to integrate and become French like other French. But we did absolutely nothing to welcome and integrate them. Only racism, disdain, bad jobs.
Now, they are between 20-30% of our population and a lot of them, a true hate of us.