Depends on how we measure victory contributions. Dead soldiers count? Amount of material and financial resources invested? Diplomatic efficiency? Strategic ingenuity? Etc.
And depends on what do mean by victory. If, for example, we look at WW2 mainly as an American attempt at dismantling the British Empire and supplanting it as the hegemon, then, well, yes, USA successfully devised the strategy, financed all the sides (including USSR) at appropriate times, physically joined the conflict as late as possible and suffered relatively minor losses, drowned all its past and potential rivals in conflict, dismantled the Empire and emerged as the nuclear hegemon with 30% of world's GDP and the dollar world order. In this view, USSR citizen losses, however huge and tragic, are merely one of the moves on the chessboard and a note on the margins of what this war and victory was about at its core. Not to downplay the USSR citizen death toll, but just to steelman one possible American view...
"In this view, USSR citizen losses, however huge and tragic, are merely one of the moves on the chessboard and a note on the margins of what this war and victory was about at its core. Not to downplay the USSR citizen death toll, but just to steelman one possible American view... "
Who won the war is not a mater of costs (lives, money anything tangible or subjective) but rather who flipped a war from advance of the common enemy to its retreat and defeat.
If soviets/ruskies lost only 1 life in Stalingrad and then only another 10 or 100 or 1000 until Berlin spending $1 or $10 or $100 or $1billions, they would still be the party that won the war.
Given that every effort counts towards a common goal it would be silly to say any one party did a minuscule contribution. If numbers of $ spent can qualify to a win just by itself and on its own, Ukronazistan war would've been won by Westies in the first year of SMO. Countless lives spent too (see Ukronazisran).
Stalingrad battle is the pivotal point where Soviets, at a great lives cost, flipped the outcome of the war and then with the help of US saw it to the end in Berlin
Very valid viewpoint. It remains to be seen whether the US can pull something like that off for a second time now - if they can play everyone else against everyone else and emerge revitalized for another century.
Regarding the postwar history, one might wonder how the world would have been shaped had socialism/communism won. If it was embraced by most of the west, if its totalitarian nature was mitigated or eliminated, if it incorporated free-market 'capitalist' principles (the same way capitalism incorporated socialist principles under the welfare stated), and so on. Would the world be a better place today? Or would the opportunist f-heads who always f-up any societal arrangement manage to subvert the system to their advantage?
As far as victory in the Cold War, which was an extension of WWII, we shall see who'll have the last laugh. The conclusion seems to be playing out right now. Russia, allied with the rest of the world, might come out as the victor after all.
I would say, Soviet Union AND USA were the co-winners of WW2. USA became the leader of the Free World while Soviet Union extended a Socialist Alliance into Central Europe, China, North Korea and Vietnam.
Although Britain and France won on paper, they actually lost their colonial empires. Germany lost - a quarter of territory and a quarter of population.
By the way - US not only helped Soviet Union outright through supply of weapons, transportation and food. It also did exert strong behind the scenes diplomatic activity in countries with whom USA continued relations (Spain, France, Finland) to block excessive involvement in the war on the Ostfront. For example, Germans were totally mystified why their Finnish allies stopped their assault in Karelia in late 1941 preventing the capture of Leningrad.
But yes, VE day would make it easier for the USA to pursue a new alliance with Russia. A detente wouldn't be enough because it wouldn't permit sufficient coordination.
Even the Brits seem incapable of recognizing that, after the defeat of Germany and Japan, the principal objective of US policy was the dismantling of the British Empire, and the removal of the United Kingdom as a great power on the world stage, and as a potential rival or challenge to US hegemony.
This, as much as anything, was the driver behind the Lend Lease Act (HR 1776!).
Churchill recognized that, but in the end, they had no choice. The only colony where they generated an economic surplus was India, but ruling India from London was "difficult".
On the other hand, US had no idea that newly decolonized countries will not align with the US. They were too naive to contemplate that. If the US knew that for really really sure, maybe they wouldn't have insisted on decolonization.
1) WWII was caused by Germany. Germany lost the war to the alliance of US and Russia.
2) WWII was caused by Germany and Russia. Germany lost the war to the US and Russia.
3) WWII was caused by Russia and Germany. Germany lost the war to the US and Russia.
4) WWII was caused by communist Russia. Germany's involvement in the war was to protect the world from communism. Everything else is conspiracy theory so shut the fuck up.
5) Russia has remained a totalitarian empire throughout history and a holy war thereagainst must be fought and won once and for all.
6) Present yourself on the double at the nearest recruitment station to be shipped to the Eastern Front shortly.
America's view of itself had been twisted from it's beginning.
It started with the ideal that the new world was the Promised Land as Israel was back in the Old Testament. The Doctrine of Manifest Destiny flowed directly from the belief in the Promised Land teaching. These two together were the ideological basis for the justification of Westward expansion.
This expansion has continued beyond the contiguous 48 states to other territori3s thousand of miles away.
America as the light on the hill. The essential nation. America as the eightful leader of a freeworld that isn't any longer free. The U.S. as the world's policeman.
The U.S. dollar's role as the sole reserve currency. The preaching of America Uber Alles?
Decision for America entering the Theater of WW II was brought by the american zionist military complex. They financed the Nazi machine first, and then their opponents. The war had to go on and make them rich. When general Patton, commander of the Third Army, invaded Germany in 1945, was criticized for his mercilessness towards Nazi soldiers. But some top SS Nazi criminals escaped justice. They were rewarded. Remember Operation Paperclip? Wernher for Brown, leading figure in the development of rocket technology in Nazi Germany, accompanied by a group of 160 top scientists and engineers, were calmly waiting for the arrival of General Patton, commander of the USA Third Army, to collect and quickly transfer them on American soil. Of course, they needed them, to beat Soviets in the Cold War. So, truth can not be denied, Soviet Russia played the decisive role in battles, with Napoleon and Hitler. They fighted with no interest other than defending their country, with their determination and sacrifice of millions lives.
Cadet Bonespurs cares only about facts, to the extent that they can be weaponized. If lies or bullshit (in Professor Frankfurt's sense of the term) work better at the moment, then that's what he'll use.
He also has no ideology other than self-aggrandizement.
"If it wasn't for the Russians, you'd be speaking German and going to a Hitler Youth Camp instead of sitting around with your nose in a book all day."--my mother, c. 1966, I was maybe 8
I believe the Soviet Union did the heavy lifting in body count and rivers of blood shed to push Germany out of the territories of the USSR and to defeat her and her allies.
"Trump appears to be one of those who fell for this revisionist framing seeing as how he falsely claimed as fact that “we did more than any other Country, by far, in producing a victorious result on World War II” when it was actually the USSR."
I'm continually surprised that after almost a decade, folks still don't understand one of Trump's key communication strategies: saying the opposite of what he means (or exaggerating or minimizing a topic) to BAIT the knee-jerk legacy media into 'debonking' his statement, thus unwittingly spreading an uncomfortable truth they would otherwise obfuscate. This induces the public to look it up themselves, which further undermines the media's narrative control. Some call it 'reverse psychology,' although that's not entirely accurate.
Sun Tzu didn't entitle his famous book "The Science Of War."
Not sure why Trump is taken for his face value when he's thinking like a real estate agent and talk realtor language.
US values are only $ and ç and they can see the win only through the $ and ç filter lenses.
___________
The interesting part and the message in the quote lies here: "...but we never celebrate anything — That’s because we don’t have leaders anymore, that know how to do so!”
.
His message is that Westies nave no leaders and that Ruskies do.
Thank you for this timely reminded of the enormous losses experienced by Russians.
Because of Stalin's role in causing the deaths of his own people, as well as his sending people who disagreed with him politically to die in gulags, I am often shocked at how much the people of Russia have suffered, both before World War II, during World War II, and since World War II.
The Russian people seem to me as always living in an authoritarian society in which freedom or liberty is almost a foreign concept. The idea of a worker's paradise seems like a cruel joke when I think of the kangaroo court system in Soviet Russia, and the fear people had of those cars pulling up in the night to arrest someone unpredictably.
I am the daughter of two people who were active in the Communist Youth movement in America, who then went on to be active in the Trade Union movement before I was born and after. To this day they still have the same values they learned in AYD (American Youth for Democracy) when they were teenagers. They still believe in Communism. My mother thinks anything negative about Stalin is just untrue and "propaganda."
My mother's family came from Russia, and my grandmother lost all contact with her family during World War II.
I respect and honor the incredible bravery and stoicism of the Russian people. I feel that the Russian people have had to submit to either Tsars or a Communist totalitarian government, so I feel as if they don't have a history of liberty as citizens, but more of a history of having to submit to authority. I don't know if that perspective is accurate or not. I am reading the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, and the German soldiers, who had never lost a single battle were shocked at how effective the Russian soldiers were, especially because they were trained to be soldiers in extremely cold and snowy conditions.
At the same time, I think American soldiers made a contribution to the defeat of Nazism, even if I don't think that Americans made the greatest contribution of any country. I do not think the Americans could win the war without the combined efforts of the Russians and the British.
I think Trump sometimes says things that take me a while to understand the deeper meaning in what he says. I have learned over time that if I think at first he is blowing smoke, after a few weeks more information comes out that turns out to make what Trump said exactly true. So now I don't automatically write off the things he says. He is a change maker. He is not like other Presidents. He does things differently and has ideas and proposals that could change the world for the better if his efforts aren't stymied by the globalist/deep state operatives/ or the CIA and IC. That is basically why he is attacked. The regular order of things in which the American worker and the American middle class get abandoned is changing, and there are people whose business model is going to be affected adversely so they are actively trying to stop him from changing things.
Thank you very much Mr.Korybko for shining light on a perspective that Americans need to learn about and understand better.
Andrew, you can’t measure importance with the amount of people who died. The facts are if it wasn’t for the US Europe is speaking German right now. The end of the war was important for every country. War is hell on everyone who experiences the conflict. Every country had casualties. Some more, some less. We mourn all who were lost and honor those who fought for their bravery and sacrifice whether being killed or wounded or saving a life of another. Both world wars would have much different outcomes if not for the US. I was just at Arlington national cemetery and seeing the changing of the guards of the unknown soldiers is a solemn act that is done to this day so we never forget the sacrifice of those who perished. The tally of who lost more to me is irrelevant. These are days that should never be forgotten.
At times, reading some comments I kinda wish Soviets stopped at their border and signed a truce with Krauts letting them focus on western front. This would allow Ruskies to arm to the teeth whilst west burns.
Coulda,shoulda,woulda. Russia did that at the end of the war as you well know. Now, they want what? What’s the point in Ukraine now? To dick around thirty miles into the country while fighting like it’s 1918? Russia isn’t going unscathed here. Loss of life is what we all mourn on days of victory. There either needs to be peace or Russia should begin advancing. Scaring the globalists at the EU has been a nice side effect of the war. We all know Russia has no interest going over the Ukraine border should they take the entire country. Russia takes a different route all the time though since WWII
Better that than to have US installations pointing at Moscow and other russian places, and all western navies crowding russians in the Black Sea, etc... There are bigger things at play here beside land...
If it wasn't for the US, Europe would have been more accustomed with Russian by now and other types of outlets with russian originating names might have appeard in Paris, beside the famous Bistros (Bistr - fast: the order of the russian soldier on the horseback to a Parisian restaurant server, after the ousting of Napoleon). Russia would have moved beyond Berlin...
Depends on how we measure victory contributions. Dead soldiers count? Amount of material and financial resources invested? Diplomatic efficiency? Strategic ingenuity? Etc.
And depends on what do mean by victory. If, for example, we look at WW2 mainly as an American attempt at dismantling the British Empire and supplanting it as the hegemon, then, well, yes, USA successfully devised the strategy, financed all the sides (including USSR) at appropriate times, physically joined the conflict as late as possible and suffered relatively minor losses, drowned all its past and potential rivals in conflict, dismantled the Empire and emerged as the nuclear hegemon with 30% of world's GDP and the dollar world order. In this view, USSR citizen losses, however huge and tragic, are merely one of the moves on the chessboard and a note on the margins of what this war and victory was about at its core. Not to downplay the USSR citizen death toll, but just to steelman one possible American view...
"In this view, USSR citizen losses, however huge and tragic, are merely one of the moves on the chessboard and a note on the margins of what this war and victory was about at its core. Not to downplay the USSR citizen death toll, but just to steelman one possible American view... "
Who won the war is not a mater of costs (lives, money anything tangible or subjective) but rather who flipped a war from advance of the common enemy to its retreat and defeat.
If soviets/ruskies lost only 1 life in Stalingrad and then only another 10 or 100 or 1000 until Berlin spending $1 or $10 or $100 or $1billions, they would still be the party that won the war.
Given that every effort counts towards a common goal it would be silly to say any one party did a minuscule contribution. If numbers of $ spent can qualify to a win just by itself and on its own, Ukronazistan war would've been won by Westies in the first year of SMO. Countless lives spent too (see Ukronazisran).
Stalingrad battle is the pivotal point where Soviets, at a great lives cost, flipped the outcome of the war and then with the help of US saw it to the end in Berlin
Very valid viewpoint. It remains to be seen whether the US can pull something like that off for a second time now - if they can play everyone else against everyone else and emerge revitalized for another century.
Regarding the postwar history, one might wonder how the world would have been shaped had socialism/communism won. If it was embraced by most of the west, if its totalitarian nature was mitigated or eliminated, if it incorporated free-market 'capitalist' principles (the same way capitalism incorporated socialist principles under the welfare stated), and so on. Would the world be a better place today? Or would the opportunist f-heads who always f-up any societal arrangement manage to subvert the system to their advantage?
As far as victory in the Cold War, which was an extension of WWII, we shall see who'll have the last laugh. The conclusion seems to be playing out right now. Russia, allied with the rest of the world, might come out as the victor after all.
I would say, Soviet Union AND USA were the co-winners of WW2. USA became the leader of the Free World while Soviet Union extended a Socialist Alliance into Central Europe, China, North Korea and Vietnam.
Although Britain and France won on paper, they actually lost their colonial empires. Germany lost - a quarter of territory and a quarter of population.
By the way - US not only helped Soviet Union outright through supply of weapons, transportation and food. It also did exert strong behind the scenes diplomatic activity in countries with whom USA continued relations (Spain, France, Finland) to block excessive involvement in the war on the Ostfront. For example, Germans were totally mystified why their Finnish allies stopped their assault in Karelia in late 1941 preventing the capture of Leningrad.
But yes, VE day would make it easier for the USA to pursue a new alliance with Russia. A detente wouldn't be enough because it wouldn't permit sufficient coordination.
Yes!
Even the Brits seem incapable of recognizing that, after the defeat of Germany and Japan, the principal objective of US policy was the dismantling of the British Empire, and the removal of the United Kingdom as a great power on the world stage, and as a potential rival or challenge to US hegemony.
This, as much as anything, was the driver behind the Lend Lease Act (HR 1776!).
Churchill recognized that, but in the end, they had no choice. The only colony where they generated an economic surplus was India, but ruling India from London was "difficult".
On the other hand, US had no idea that newly decolonized countries will not align with the US. They were too naive to contemplate that. If the US knew that for really really sure, maybe they wouldn't have insisted on decolonization.
It will go like this:
1) WWII was caused by Germany. Germany lost the war to the alliance of US and Russia.
2) WWII was caused by Germany and Russia. Germany lost the war to the US and Russia.
3) WWII was caused by Russia and Germany. Germany lost the war to the US and Russia.
4) WWII was caused by communist Russia. Germany's involvement in the war was to protect the world from communism. Everything else is conspiracy theory so shut the fuck up.
5) Russia has remained a totalitarian empire throughout history and a holy war thereagainst must be fought and won once and for all.
6) Present yourself on the double at the nearest recruitment station to be shipped to the Eastern Front shortly.
America's view of itself had been twisted from it's beginning.
It started with the ideal that the new world was the Promised Land as Israel was back in the Old Testament. The Doctrine of Manifest Destiny flowed directly from the belief in the Promised Land teaching. These two together were the ideological basis for the justification of Westward expansion.
This expansion has continued beyond the contiguous 48 states to other territori3s thousand of miles away.
America as the light on the hill. The essential nation. America as the eightful leader of a freeworld that isn't any longer free. The U.S. as the world's policeman.
The U.S. dollar's role as the sole reserve currency. The preaching of America Uber Alles?
Thank you for this timely and perceptive article.
I would add, that the debt owed by Europe to Russia and Red Army is too great ever to be repaid, and consequently too great ever to be acknowledged.
Excellent, I hope you don't mind if I use & quote that sentence.
Be my guest :)
Decision for America entering the Theater of WW II was brought by the american zionist military complex. They financed the Nazi machine first, and then their opponents. The war had to go on and make them rich. When general Patton, commander of the Third Army, invaded Germany in 1945, was criticized for his mercilessness towards Nazi soldiers. But some top SS Nazi criminals escaped justice. They were rewarded. Remember Operation Paperclip? Wernher for Brown, leading figure in the development of rocket technology in Nazi Germany, accompanied by a group of 160 top scientists and engineers, were calmly waiting for the arrival of General Patton, commander of the USA Third Army, to collect and quickly transfer them on American soil. Of course, they needed them, to beat Soviets in the Cold War. So, truth can not be denied, Soviet Russia played the decisive role in battles, with Napoleon and Hitler. They fighted with no interest other than defending their country, with their determination and sacrifice of millions lives.
Cadet Bonespurs cares only about facts, to the extent that they can be weaponized. If lies or bullshit (in Professor Frankfurt's sense of the term) work better at the moment, then that's what he'll use.
He also has no ideology other than self-aggrandizement.
"If it wasn't for the Russians, you'd be speaking German and going to a Hitler Youth Camp instead of sitting around with your nose in a book all day."--my mother, c. 1966, I was maybe 8
I believe the Soviet Union did the heavy lifting in body count and rivers of blood shed to push Germany out of the territories of the USSR and to defeat her and her allies.
"Trump appears to be one of those who fell for this revisionist framing seeing as how he falsely claimed as fact that “we did more than any other Country, by far, in producing a victorious result on World War II” when it was actually the USSR."
I'm continually surprised that after almost a decade, folks still don't understand one of Trump's key communication strategies: saying the opposite of what he means (or exaggerating or minimizing a topic) to BAIT the knee-jerk legacy media into 'debonking' his statement, thus unwittingly spreading an uncomfortable truth they would otherwise obfuscate. This induces the public to look it up themselves, which further undermines the media's narrative control. Some call it 'reverse psychology,' although that's not entirely accurate.
Sun Tzu didn't entitle his famous book "The Science Of War."
Not sure why Trump is taken for his face value when he's thinking like a real estate agent and talk realtor language.
US values are only $ and ç and they can see the win only through the $ and ç filter lenses.
___________
The interesting part and the message in the quote lies here: "...but we never celebrate anything — That’s because we don’t have leaders anymore, that know how to do so!”
.
His message is that Westies nave no leaders and that Ruskies do.
.
Thank you for this timely reminded of the enormous losses experienced by Russians.
Because of Stalin's role in causing the deaths of his own people, as well as his sending people who disagreed with him politically to die in gulags, I am often shocked at how much the people of Russia have suffered, both before World War II, during World War II, and since World War II.
The Russian people seem to me as always living in an authoritarian society in which freedom or liberty is almost a foreign concept. The idea of a worker's paradise seems like a cruel joke when I think of the kangaroo court system in Soviet Russia, and the fear people had of those cars pulling up in the night to arrest someone unpredictably.
I am the daughter of two people who were active in the Communist Youth movement in America, who then went on to be active in the Trade Union movement before I was born and after. To this day they still have the same values they learned in AYD (American Youth for Democracy) when they were teenagers. They still believe in Communism. My mother thinks anything negative about Stalin is just untrue and "propaganda."
My mother's family came from Russia, and my grandmother lost all contact with her family during World War II.
I respect and honor the incredible bravery and stoicism of the Russian people. I feel that the Russian people have had to submit to either Tsars or a Communist totalitarian government, so I feel as if they don't have a history of liberty as citizens, but more of a history of having to submit to authority. I don't know if that perspective is accurate or not. I am reading the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, and the German soldiers, who had never lost a single battle were shocked at how effective the Russian soldiers were, especially because they were trained to be soldiers in extremely cold and snowy conditions.
At the same time, I think American soldiers made a contribution to the defeat of Nazism, even if I don't think that Americans made the greatest contribution of any country. I do not think the Americans could win the war without the combined efforts of the Russians and the British.
I think Trump sometimes says things that take me a while to understand the deeper meaning in what he says. I have learned over time that if I think at first he is blowing smoke, after a few weeks more information comes out that turns out to make what Trump said exactly true. So now I don't automatically write off the things he says. He is a change maker. He is not like other Presidents. He does things differently and has ideas and proposals that could change the world for the better if his efforts aren't stymied by the globalist/deep state operatives/ or the CIA and IC. That is basically why he is attacked. The regular order of things in which the American worker and the American middle class get abandoned is changing, and there are people whose business model is going to be affected adversely so they are actively trying to stop him from changing things.
Thank you very much Mr.Korybko for shining light on a perspective that Americans need to learn about and understand better.
Andrew, you can’t measure importance with the amount of people who died. The facts are if it wasn’t for the US Europe is speaking German right now. The end of the war was important for every country. War is hell on everyone who experiences the conflict. Every country had casualties. Some more, some less. We mourn all who were lost and honor those who fought for their bravery and sacrifice whether being killed or wounded or saving a life of another. Both world wars would have much different outcomes if not for the US. I was just at Arlington national cemetery and seeing the changing of the guards of the unknown soldiers is a solemn act that is done to this day so we never forget the sacrifice of those who perished. The tally of who lost more to me is irrelevant. These are days that should never be forgotten.
This is the propaganda you (and I) learned at school.
The facts are if it wasn't for the US, Europe would be speaking Russian right now.
What I said.
Not the same by a magnitude of order.
At times, reading some comments I kinda wish Soviets stopped at their border and signed a truce with Krauts letting them focus on western front. This would allow Ruskies to arm to the teeth whilst west burns.
Coulda,shoulda,woulda. Russia did that at the end of the war as you well know. Now, they want what? What’s the point in Ukraine now? To dick around thirty miles into the country while fighting like it’s 1918? Russia isn’t going unscathed here. Loss of life is what we all mourn on days of victory. There either needs to be peace or Russia should begin advancing. Scaring the globalists at the EU has been a nice side effect of the war. We all know Russia has no interest going over the Ukraine border should they take the entire country. Russia takes a different route all the time though since WWII
"Russia did *that*" is exactly what?
Not sure whadafaq are you talking about. Make yourself coherent then respond.
Better that than to have US installations pointing at Moscow and other russian places, and all western navies crowding russians in the Black Sea, etc... There are bigger things at play here beside land...
If it wasn't for the US, Europe would have been more accustomed with Russian by now and other types of outlets with russian originating names might have appeard in Paris, beside the famous Bistros (Bistr - fast: the order of the russian soldier on the horseback to a Parisian restaurant server, after the ousting of Napoleon). Russia would have moved beyond Berlin...